Some new user observations

#1

I've been patching a day or so and i've already hinted at some of my new user experiences in a few existing threads. However, i can see there's a long long list of observations piling up and I may be able to work through many by being patient, but whilst i come across those which are persisting or clear issues i'd like a space to offload them. Some of this may lead to a smoothing of the entry for subsequent new users. As mentioned elsewhere, once you have a reasonable understanding, you start to lose sight of what would make things useful for the beginner as you're already beyond that.

Some of this will be critical, implicitly critical, mistaken, but that's not to say i don't appreciate the good stuff or all the considerable efforts to date. I often package my subjective opinions as if they were objective, so forgive me on that

I'll run through topics below on a one per post basis, that way, if the posts are useful elsewhere it's easy for an admin to move the post/replies to an appropriate thread if needs be (i'm also an admin on a forum using Discourse) (and i'm also quick to point to the search button or the 'be patient' quote) but in this instance, i'd like to cut myself a little bit of slack to offload here (rather than just creating huge lists and getting overwhelmed by the seeming obstacles)

I shall kick things off with a bug, rather than creating noise on the forum with slightly trivial things i thought it may be handy to hide these away here (especially if they are short lived) - that's one aspect as a noob on a rapidly developing platform, it's clear that a lot of the forum discourse is already outdated ..

#2

BUG:

I was browsing the options and the Help area in particular

I was interested to browse the various objects to see what could be gleaned by looking and reading

After i had looked at any .axh example file (then closed it) , the Help menu became unaccessible

It would inverse highlight the word, but would not produce a menu beneath

This is repeatable

#3

Suggestion:

Relating to the help file issue above and new user familiarisation

It'd be good to be able to browse object definitions and help files in a browser (even a pdf)

Is there a collation of such information available (official/otherwise .. not paid) so that you can get up to speed whilst not at the machine hosting the software (most of my browsing is on a Chromebook) ?

#4

Suggestion:

There's a lot of nuggets to find here there and everywhere for new users, i'm methodically bookmarking those posts which seem to tackle the issues i'd like to grasp as a new user. Documenting this as a new user myself would be ideal, but that's not something i can be sure to manage. However, it strikes me, that as an aid to searching the posts and threads, perhaps the tags could be exploited more.

At this moment, i am still unsure about very basic things, i can see similar questions to the ones i have been asking have popped up mid thread and they have been answered .. stuff relating to priority of loading if you have a patch on device/card and so on .. now these may well be covered in other places, but it's stumbling across the right thread at the right time to be forewarned which is proving tricky for me (perhaps a reflection of an unfair expectation that as a confident Max/Nord patcher i should already be up to speed somehow .. or maybe i'm just slow in my old age)

So it was really just to suggest tagging all posts with useful rudimentary info on it with a 'faq / noob' style tag to aid searching

#5

(edit by @johannes: addressed the inappropriate automatic horizontal scrolling for the next release)

Feature Request

I make no apologies, this drives me mad (made far worse by having a slightly flaky bluetooth mac mouse)

Can the main window with the connect button be user sized for subsequent visits

There will be zero prospect of me ever leaving it at the default size ever

As soon as any task with a long string is echoed there it moves the horizontal scroll bar to the right

Then all subsequent echoes are un-readable without constantly moving the slider back

It's slightly ironic that the text there is arguably too big (exacerbating the issue) given the fonts on the patcher are arguably too small

Can this be made (however hacky) so that it can be set to size wider at startup (and maybe with a smaller font) ?

The same goes for new Patches, i can see some folk may like to start with the small square, but i'd like to start with a default patch circa 800px wide as this incorporates all the UI elements at first glance

I'm sure the average user is always expanding on the current startup size window - surely these are trivial additions for a preference option

#6

edit by @johannes : link to Mac file associations issue

Observation :

.AXP file types are recognised as axoloti patches by the finder, there's a seeming attempt to load from the finder when double clicking or dragging onto the application icon but nothing comes of it

Is this a bug / limitation / desirable (y) ?

That was a tiny point, to add another tiny one to the post ..

when browsing tutorials as a new user there's a lot of in and out of patches

When any adjustment has been made you are always asked if you'd like to save

My FR is that there should be a quick way to dismiss these (otherwise helpful) windows set up to prevent loss of work

i.e. either a quick way to close without warning or at least a way to select the first letter of the second option

currently it's this ..

exit.png885x134 10.1 KB

a means to avoid this or manually key select the Don't save would be handy (again with a flaky mouse) and lots of in and out, this kind of detail adds up !!

#7

(edit by @johannes: fix developed for next release)

BUG ? :

The instruction i read stated modifier keys can be used to get finer control

Parameters can be changed by:
mouse for units, + shift for sub-units, +shift+ctrl for fine units (e.g 0.5,0.05,0.01)

This is nuanced (and a little less clear) when you're on a mac

In this case Ctrl + Click is a mimic of a Right Click

So following an mac user assumption that Cmd can be substituted (as one does from time to time) it becomes clear that Shift&Cmd clicking currently offers no different a resolution that just Shift clicking alone - i.e. for a ctrl/dial, there's no way for me (Mavericks) to adjust at the 0.01 level (i can type it in)

However, i am able to adjust at the fine 0.01 level by using the Cmd&Shift modifier, but only if i use the up/down arrows - this leads me to believe its omission from the mouse behaviour is therefore a bug ?

#8

BUG ? :

When you drop some objects on the Editor - once they have a black 'selected' frame they can be deleted

I've noticed this for more objects than just osc/phasor compl btw

Normally if you create and then select by selecting the dark grey type area it can be deleted

If you adjust a dial, then deselect that dial (so it's not even highlighted, also may be irrelevant) the object can't be deleted, even once you have selected the name again and it is highlighted ... this is occasionally the case when any other object is in the patch, at such times as the normal selection is made - i can also see that there has been some ui 'selection/adjustment' on the other object even though it has not been touched

i.e. i had e.g. a ctrl/button, normally this is showing a faint pixel wide circle, but when you interact with it it shows a bolder circle - what i'm saying is that i can be interacting with the object as above, seemingly selecting it and being unable to delete it, until i basically click in and out of the objects and reselect

This has happened a few times, it's not exactly repeatable, it's not clumsy usage either, there's a gremlin on focus somewhere that seems to follow highlighting a dial (not an issue for the ctrl/dial object ) but i've noticed it for other objects and notably the first osc object (even when the dial has lost focus, it remain un-deletable, without UI clicking)

#9

I think everyone who starts playing around with Axoloti will encounter a bunch of "personal issues", things that you'd like to change, but they might actually not be that important, seen in a bigger perspective. Everyone has been there.

Everyone has loads of ideas, but there is only ONE main developer and a few contributors, Technobear , being the biggest. So there is only limited "personal ressources" available to program, develop, etc.. And from what I know Johannes all ready got his table full with future updates for Axoloti.

Axoloti has since the crowd funding campaign come a long way. Many significant updates have been made. I think you should focus on learning Axoloti and all the positive things in Axoloti instead of focusing only on the tiny bad things.... Oh, and get a new mouse, that seems to be important issue in your setup :wink:

There is a lot to explore, which can keep you occupied from looking and the tiny bad stuff. I have been there myself, mostly in the beginning maybe having to high ekspectations for the one man army named Johannes. If something changed drastically in an update, so I couldn't load my patches, then I'd mention it and if I come across some serious issues on updates, then I'll let the developer know. But a lot of the small things, I think you just going to have to live with it, my friend, like everyone else. Focus on what you can do, instead of what you can not :wink:

If you are a programmer, I am sure Johannes willl appreciate your effort on adding some of the suggestions you have. In the beginning I was also VERY eager to get updates etc. for those things I'd like, but over time realizing I can not expect the developer to program every little object I need or add every little personal need I have. Just focus on what you can do with Axoloti instead of what you can't..... And you won't be bored fro a long time. As a new user, you have so much to explore......Like alot........ And if you always focus on what you cannot do, it is not going to be as fun as it would, if you'd focus on the good stuff.

Set yourself some goals and seperate them. Build a sampler, build a synth, build some effects for learning purposes.... The longer time you spend the better result you'll get. Build your personal library.

I wish you a wonderful journey into the world of Axoloti :wink:

#10

Fair enough, i get your point, no arguments wrt seeing this from the perspective presented, i agree with that

I am trying to offer positive feedback, as i mentioned, it will sound critical but it's not objections or demands, it's feedback if it is useful. I think it relates to the general topic, i'm aware of maybe half a dozen faces from the internet using this and very few are doing anything with it .. what makes it such that the early adopter is not getting through to the eureka moment.

I'm commenting on the low hanging fruit for sure and i think a general new user perspective towards user experience issues could be helpful. There would be little or no point in me making notes locally about the things which work well and for me, there's little point in me making notes about the things which don't work well if i never share that (or fix it, which i doubt is within my skill set as someone who last received formal computer language training for Fortran77

I did try to pre-empt this critical picky impression it gives off by suggesting it's tucked out of the way and useable if wanted .. sure, the vanishing help isn't the end of the world, but if it affects dozens (or hundreds) (or more ?) of people and it is easy to tidy, then why not share

I certainly think being able to adjust fine values is worth flagging up and i'm sure there'll be more

It's not my expectation that this results in anything being done and neither would i say it's my focus, but it doesn't help anybody if you don't provide feedback when there are clear problems

Not having your preferred shortcut type comments could seem like it's just a complaint-fest, sure, but unfortunately mousing is a problem for me with rsi type issues, my mouse reliability isn't going to improve until i power down the mac, unplug all the usb devices, restart it and let the bluetooth setup settle down before replugging the usb gear again .. it seems the axoloti perhaps - like some usb hubs will when plugged in slowly degrade the usb mouse response until i have to do this annoying and slow reset procedure .. it's the only workaround i've found to get the response back .. that's why i make the comment, it may not have been so acute were it not for the mouse (which has to be bluetooth)

Anyway - i do take on board your point, it's probably what i would say if i were further down the path and i had a workflow established, but it's somewhat puzzling as a new user when you're finding your feet to see that objects don't delete

It's also just the way i can look to sustain my commitment, i do also advocate a glass half-filled approach to working with apparent obstacles but i know from my own experience it's the frequent low level stuff which gets the better of me in the long term - pretty much why for me music making can't involve the computer as the computer invariably brings with it lots of buzzkill moments

None of the above, as mentioned from the get go, is intended as criticism of those propping up the community or the progress made, i also expect an expression of preference to be treated just as that, an opinion of one

Right, time to disconnect, reboot and get my mouse back online - the trackpad is just not so useful for patching

In the meantime, i still have a lot of very basic things to get clear, i'll concentrate there and keep the noise to a minimum here

#11

I am confident that you will have a lot of fun as soon as you get over the first hurdles.

@janvantomme has also written an E-book about getting started with Axoloti. It has definetely helped me to convert from Clavia modular to Axoloti. I am old Clavia user too :wink: Like for example on Nord modular you can use an envelope by itself, but in Axoloti you need and envelope as well as a VCA to get the same result. Small things, but the book gives insight in many of the beginner issues you might run into :wink:

Link to E-book:
https://leanpub.com/getting-started-with-axoloti

  • Chapter 1 is free :wink:
#12

thanks for the feedback.

I'll try to go back thru it when Ive the code open, and see if any are easy fixes...
(sorry Ive not time to comment on everything)

unfortunately, some of the things you mention are just the java UI, and sometimes these can be difficult to work around.... other times, its just some code that needs writing - unfortunately, you can't really know if its 'low hanging fruit' unless you are implementing it .. some tiny things can be hard to implement, some big things can be trivial to implement - it just depends.

tags - I only added to discourse recently, and as I said at the time, unfortunately i dont have time to go back thru past posts tagging them. (and only the author of the original post can tag it)

double click axp to open - I implemented the basics, and this works on other platforms, but for OS X, I need to use a specific OS X call, this means I need to derive the main app from a platform specific version... which Ive not had time to do. (on other platforms, you dont need to do this)

anyway, as I say other stuff, next time Ive got the code editor open, I'll take a look and see if there are any small things I can do to reduce frustration. (but no promises!)

#13

Again, please see the motivation from above .. i'm saying this from the perspective of a very new user i think this is worth flagging (more first time users are around the corner) .. some of the demo library patches are missing some elements, there is no drama, but i'm at a point where i genuinely don't know how to resolve this, i expect this insight will come and the sense of helplessness will pass

there's no mention on the forum of stringvoice but i'm guessing it's an .axs file missing somewhere, it doesn't say it's an axs and there's no error message or clues within the patcher the only error states { Object name ./../synth/stringvoice not found } - i have to say as a new user this is not helping my confidence to believe i'll get over the hurdles { see scripted_midi_drama }

the same applies to the sampling drum machine which is missing some raw files, whatever they are !

a few example patches would also not even load and would disconnect the board

this is important at the stage where you are slowly building a belief you can master the environment .. it dents the confidence, already fragile if you're perhaps not a developer

on the flip side of this message, it's often only possible to learn meaningfully when you overcome and that can lift the confidence .. so long as an average user isn't overwhelmed by too many barriers in the early days

so, resolution of these particular matters is not what's important to me (i will persevere through this, i hope), it's just that the story for struggling newcomers may include a few moments where the roadblocks overwhelm them

hth

#14

fixed

the same applies to the sampling drum machine which is missing some raw files, whatever they are !

you are expected to supply your own, I've updated the comments on the patch to clarify this

a few example patches would also not even load and would disconnect the board

it would be useful if you tell me which... I dont have time to go thru every demo patch - sorry

honestly, I know where your coming from.. if I was working on this as a commercial project, then I would expect my QA team to go through all demos/examples on each release and ensure they are working...

BUT ... its not that kind of project, Im a volunteer and johannes has 'bigger fish to fry'.
thats the thing about open source projects of this nature, they really need community participation to help spread the load... so 'volunteers' can spend a bit of time 'supporting axoloti' but still have time to use it and retain their own enthusiasm for the project. (otherwise it will become too much like work for us!)

#15

Hey @avantronica,

I'm a contributor and would be happy to add some of your items to my queue. I'd appreciate it if you could report issues and feature requests in as concise a way as possible, preferably as actual "Issues" in our Github repository here: https://github.com/axoloti/axoloti/issues. Open a separate one for each issue you have. Boil it down to the absolute essence of the issue in the subject line and then provide elaboration or specific steps to reproduce if it's a bug in the body. Note the platform you're running on in the issue as well. I fear that if issues are presented in very large chunks of text on the forum they will get lost.

At the moment I'm still working on a large effort to give us a properly zoomable patch UI, which should address your concerns about the small patch UI fonts. I'll then be able to return to some of these smaller usability issues.

Best,
Nicolas

#16

this may sound like a naive question, what level of help can be accommodated from a spectrum of users ?

I'm not a programmer, I have on occasions over many years used various 'programming' tools to achieve an end, very much hacking and adapting existing code .. success may be possible in terms of an apparently robust result, but I would not have a clue if it was done efficiently

how is the community contribution orchestrated and checked .. if there was something as trivial as maybe a window size value to modify then who would coordinate those preference calls & potentially conflicting submissions and check that errors were not introduced by mistake and so on, it raises all sorts of questions that may be obvious if you're already working in a similar way

I think in having to ask I already reveal my implicit exclusion from the process, but what are the basics that would allow others (perhaps myself) to deal with some of the small fish ? What languages are we discussing (was it java), what tools are required .. I'm keeping this separate from adapting or adding objects which I guess is working with a different language (was it c)

I guess the question is, will there be a way for those with less formal skill sets to help, how do you step in from the outside ?

if there was a perceived shortcoming in the object help patchers how would one go about filling the gaps, omissions or adding more detail .. perhaps I should look through earlier forum discussions to see if these concepts were covered

#17

all really good questions... and some for which I dont think we have perfect answers for :slight_smile:

of course we already have rich involvement here with the community library, and also user interaction... which is fantastic.

but if we are talking about the 'released' project , and how people can get involved...

first, Id like to stress, anyone can get involved, programmers are just one part of the equation, there are many equally as important tasks:
your posts have already highlighted a few examples (and there are many more)...
- documentation / user guide / video tutorials
- testing of demo/example patches (and fixing if broken?!)
- creation of better tutorials/demos (so patching)
- improving help patches for objects (more patching)
- user support (on here)

these are in no way 'lesser' tasks, than writing code... as you have pointed out they contribute immensely to user experience AND have an added advantage that the more they are covered by others, then those with programmings skills can do coding.
also, as I said earlier, often coders (very much including me) , are quite often are not the best people to do these tasks, as there are better writers/educators out there.
(Id also argue, if you read feedback from new users, these areas are often the 'most criticised' and given as reason for a steep learning curve)

if we turn to 'coding'.... there are 2 parts

Axoloti UI - this needs java programming experience, not really much else.
there is quite a lot of code, but I wouldn't (in my experience) say its particular complex, but of course like many projects, there is little documentation, so you do have to 'jump in at the deep end' (this could be daunting I guess if your new to programming on big projects), but Johannes is great for giving explanations when you ask 'why?'

Axoloti Firmware - this is C code, needs a bit more experience... useful if you have some STM32 experience.

Coordination/Planning
small bug fixes/contributions are not generally an issue, but larger changes are more complicated, and it is something we have struggled with. In the past, I talked/mailed to @johannes to coordinate my changes... but this doesn't really scale with more developers, so we will need to formalise this a bit more. so 'expectations' are clear. The last release highlighted a few areas we need to work on in this area, and Ive suggested a few ways we can overcome some of the issues we encountered.

Honestly, though, I don't really have the answers for some of this.
Ive managed many big commercial projects, so I'm experienced in project planning/release (both 'traditional' and agile) but open source projects are very different, you cannot plan 'the teams effort' in the same way, and also communication is more difficult.
If anyone has experience of doing this on an open source project, its definitely 'worthy of discussion', in particular 'release management'.

I will point out one overriding 'rule', which shapes things - this is @johannes project, so at the end of the day, he makes the final call... (he is very open to ideas/discussion, but he makes the final decision).

anyway, the community is already making a major contribution... and if anyone wants to get involved more, regardless of skill set, I think there are many valuable contributions to be made.

I will say as a 'contributor' , Ive learnt a huge amount about axoloti and dsp, when you start explaining/documenting/patching for some else, you do gain alot of new insights, finding out things you would have never thought to explore :slight_smile:

anyway... enough words... I really should spend more time patching/coding/music making and less time posting :wink:

#18

how about this for starters, certainly something i'd like to be able to browse, i'll do it for myself anyway, but it would be annoying if it was erased at every new release (what aspects of objects and help files are replaced?)

so it would make some more sense if there was an easy path for me to submit the content either directly or effectively directly, but ultimately it makes more sense if these aspects are community editable to cater for errors/improvements etc

So, drop the 'Overview' help patch in the objects folder for the sub-group of objects, it appears first because of the underscore name (it may be necessary to offer two or more to cover larger object groups)

So, here e.g. /axoloti/axoloti-factory/objects/audio/_GALLERY_audio.axh

Then view from the patcher Help/Library menu

GALLERYaudio.axh (3.4 KB)

Ignore italics, it's actually named as shown in the path string above

There's arguably little point in me offering this if it would be objected to, so some sort of green light in that regard would be helpful, making better or more help files would be doable, but it could get very clunky if one or more individual is funnelling these via a main developer, how best to make that work for everyone and how often would the results be updated to those using the software (obviously i've only had one version so far)

As well as enhancing and completing the Help files there may be benefit to adding a one(or more) line comment for each object in the overview if clarity is needed

Is there a way to hyperlink across patches ?

#19

I truly appreciate this sort of input!
I think, to convert it into development and keep track, it would be a good idea to convert this into separate "issues" on github. The best issues are 'atomic', requesting a single independent change. That way they can be tracked, and linked to relevant changes in the code.
GitHub centralizes the development, allow to keep track of which files have been changed, when, by who, for what reason, what the actual change is, etc.
To contribute help patches to the factory library, the ideal way is to turn them into "pull requests" on GitHub. To do this, you need to install the Github desktop Client, launch that application, and add (+ button on the topleft) the axoloti-factory folder as an existing repository.

If you then make changes to files in axoloti-factory, those files will show up on the left hand, and selecting a file will show the differences on the right hand.
To turn this into a "pull request", you need to "create a new branch" (and give it a name), then select one or multiple modified files, and "commit" them to your branch (give it a descriptive summary). And then you can finally create a "pull request".

I get a notification when that happens, and can then review the changes, comment, and eventually accept the changes, at that point they become part of the official axoloti-factory. When other users then do a "sync libraries" they get the update, no need to download and install a new version.

This is a bit more complex than attaching a patch to a forum post, but makes it far more manageable on my side.
Could you try this, and tell me if this process is doable, or where it is unclear?

Hyperlinks in a patch are possible through the "patch/hyperlink" object. The factory tutorial patches use them for example.

#20

I have not found how to repeat this, could you write exact steps?