Critter and Guitari - Organelle

#21

please provide some latency measurements when you get the chance! so we can settle this once and for all :slight_smile:

#22

will do, though at the moment Im either spending my time just playing it ... or trying to work out what makes it tick (software, codec, arch linux setup etc)

latency will be a bit tricky.
guess the best is to measure RTT on ADC<- PD -> DAC as thats what most users are using it for, when using effects.

then there is midi latency, I could do an RTT, but thats fraught with issues e.g. latency in the loopback device, the connection method (e.g. if I use a USB midi din converter that is going to be slower than USB to USB) - so not really sure the best way to do this, to get a fair measurement.
what I would be more interested in is jitter for midi.

... and of course, using PD, would not be as quick as using alsa directly from C++ etc, so not strictly a test of the hardware, rather the normal 'users experience'

I wil say so far, as an instrument it seems fine... and even when using it as a send effect it sounded good... now that may be as i was tending to play with reverbs/delays so of course, latency is not a big issue....
(and of course with FX, you can select wet/dry... so I can select full wet, and let the mixer give me the dry mix)

#23

i would be most interested in analog in to analog out with a simple adc~ dac~ connection in puredata. should be fairly easy to measure and i can get a pretty good idea from there :slight_smile: midi in to audio out depends on a lot of stuff, that is true. maybe usb midi (not din) with a simple synth patch in puredata to analog out. do you have an oscilloscope? that would make things much easier.

thanks for investigating and looking forward to the results, wondering if my friend got his measurements right!

#24

6 posts were merged into an existing topic: Rasberry Pi as musical instrument

#25

@thetechnobear

Wuhuuuu, FINALLY I got my hands on a second hand Organelle :slight_smile: Just waiting to finalize last step of the deal..... Excited :slight_smile:

#26

cool, if your getting familiar with PD , I think you'll like it...
its also getting a bit of a buzz around it - very different from Axoloti, I think a much small percentage of the community make patches... and just use them, but there getting a good supply , and many are well thought out.
as I said, I think its strength is immediacy, because the form factor is a given... patches have to work with the hardware that is there, so they are always 'finished' and useable.
of course, if your in to PD etc, then you can take them and tweak them, or use bits for other projects... its fun :slight_smile:

#27

oh @jaffasplaffa , buy a small wifi dongle.. makes transferring patches etc, much easier.
(id also recommend at some point getting a larger sd card (8 or 16gb), see my posts on using sdcard rather than usb stick!)

#28

Yay, I payed for it now, so now it is just the waiting game..... I hate that.... :slight_smile:

I almost havent touched the Axoloti for the last couple of months, have been learning PD, so starting to have a decent library for PD and can soon start to make some music. But I guess I need to do some adaptions top make them run on Organelle now, hehe :slight_smile:

yeah, that is next. Finding out how to optimize it and make it run as smooth as possible :slight_smile:

#29

MOD NOTE: Ive moved this from a thread discussing audio effects on Axoloti, as it starts venturing into alternatives including Organelle - TB

On what hardware though?

#30

Pure Data can run on many different platform, like Win, Osx, Linux, etc.

So it is basically up to you what you want to run it on. There are also dedicated devices that runs Pure Data, like Organelle. Just got an Organelle a few days ago and on this I can finally make full arrangements on a single device. Couldnt do that on Axoloti, so I am really happy about this.

Pure Data can also run on a Raspberry Pi if you like. So it is really up to the user and be creative and build what you want :slight_smile:

#31

Oh ok, organelle hey, will check that out.

#32

$495.00, no thanks

doesn't look like pro audio gear either.

• Sampling Rate: 44.1kHz; 16-bit (In & Out)
• 2x ¼" Mono Sound Output Jacks (L & R channels)

A toy, not even as good as axo.

Massively overpriced, not flexible, wouldn't use it if given one.

#33

A 1Ghz Axo with 512 meg or more of ram would be good though.

#34

I didnt pay that for mine. Yes I think that is a bit too expensive.

Sound quality is better than Axoloti. And sonic capabilities are a lot greater too.

Wrong. As it runs Pure Data it can do a lot more than Axoloti can, cause Pure Data is many years old and have been developed for a lot longer time than Axo has.

Yeah, some things take time. As I said, the things I want to do, cannot be done on Axoloti because of its low DSP power. If Axoloti had a lot more power it would be great, but it doesnt, so for me personally it is a natural progression to move on to something that can do the things I want to do. I think that is a fair and a personally choice.

I do think Axo has been a big learning experience. But I just feel like I wont learn much more if I stay on this platform, so of course I am going to try something new :slight_smile:

#35

lol, sorry 16 bit 44.1k is not better sound than Axo, what are you running it into? do you have decent studio monitors good enough to compare sound quality somewhat objectively?

The organelle would not suit my needs even if it were cheap.

It runs linux and linux is not a real time OS, and is a massive unnecessary processing and maintenance overhead.

Just a 5 second look at the thing tells me it's not what I want, Axo, for all it's faults, is much more flexible and extendable

I had a brief look at pure data, it's even uglier looking than Axo, nowhere near as intuitive to use and doesn't appear to have a fraction of the available modules for Axo. Pass.

#36

Appears you could build your own with an RPI and save $495, the following allthough for guitar seams very similar approach.

#37

@strum

16 bit 44.1 is more than enough.

I have got an couple of Axolotis and I have had them for a few years now. I have also got an Organelle. And my opinion based on listening tests and actually listening to both devices, the sound in Organelle is of better quality. Have you tested them next to each other?

Another ting is how good an audio device sounds isnt necessarily only reliant on the sample and bit rate, but probably more on the quality of the dac being used. There are many things playing a role here, so saying 16 48 is better than 16 44,1 is not really a 100% true.

I have not said it was intuitiv, I said that Pure Data is reliant on the computer you run it ons processor. Hence you can load a lot more, hence you can go deeper and explore synthesis like FFT and phase vocoding. You can't do that in Axoloti cause it doesnt have the amount of DSP or memory needed. Again, I am just saying my needs have exceedes what is possible with Axoloti and therefor need to try something else. And PD can, from what I learned by now, do anything I want. It might look "simple" but it is super complex and you need to work for it :slight_smile:

#38

@Gavin
I am happy, I payed around 340 dollars for mine :wink:

But saying that one saves a lot of money is not always entirely true. Cause most of the times you need a lot more than just the Pi3 to make a sound device. For example an audio hat of good quality easily cost 100-200$. You can get a lot cheaper audio interfaces so there is something to save there.. But then if you also need a bunch of knobs too and other things, like display if you wan to interact with it without a regular computer display. Eventually the PI3 build I was working on enden up costing more than I payed for the Organelle. So I put the Pi3 build on hold and instead bought the organelle. But still plan to make the Pi3 build later on.

#39

Can I ask all users to refrain from 'dismissing' any other products with phrases like 'toy'.
This kind of phrasing tends to lead discussions/forums to a bad place.

You can be critical, but keep it balanced and objective, and also respect that others may have differing opinions, or require different qualities from the product.

#40

(removes mod hat, dons lover of small musical devices hat)

@strum, I understand your viewpoint, and how things are not meeting your criteria... but there are lots of market segments out there, different musicians, different needs.
lets remember, there are some great musicians producing great music with tools of much lower specs than axoloti , organelle or a.n.other ... its not the tools, its what they do with them.

thats not to say any of these meet your (or other musicians) requirements., e.g. Im sure many professional studios have exacting requirements, that mean they won't use these technologies.
But its probably fair to say, these products are not aimed at these markets.
as always, commercially there is a balancing act, which is where target market/price points become important...
you may be willing to pay (e.g.) $50 more for x,y,z... but how does that affect the rest of the target market? perhaps they are not. at which point its the manufacture (who takes the product/investment risk) who has to decide, what is IN and what is OUT.

Organelle - I also love, and actually regret that I dismissed it early on... (see my early comments in this thread)
although I recognised it then as a 'complete package', it wasn't until I got one, I really realised how important that was, and what it opened up.

Specs do not tell the whole story... with digital instruments, a lot is about the software that is run on them, you can write bad dsp algo at high sample rates/bit depths, and it will still alias/sound horrible.
similarly whilst I prefer an RTOS, if you are careful with non-RTOS they can still perform... which we already rely on for PC/Mac etc - but sure you have to be careful, and it depends on your needs.

as for Pure Data, again, Ive been relatively critical in other thread (search Pure Data), I do agree, I think generally the patching environment is not as good as Axoloti, and just has a more technical feel... (I think like Max is to say Reaktor).
also writing 'native objects' (aka externals) is no where near as easy as Axoloti.
however, there is no doubt its just as flexible as Axoloti, and has the benefit of 100's of externals that have been written for it... which cover just about everything :wink: ... also there is a reasonably large healthy community to help out.... and its cross platform, which aids patch development a lot.

overall i think PD is far from perfect, but like any tool, once you get to know it... its plenty powerful enough for the job. (and if your going to start doing powerful DSP, heavy lifting... your going to be writing it in C/C++, then the 'object wrapper' becomes largely irrelevant)

the other options are:
Bela... this might work for you, certainly its got an RTOS ( IF you are careful with software), and low latency.
however, the software/support etc, I personally don't think matches Axoloti. It gives lots of choices, but then leaves you to find the right route , perfect for low level guys (Ive got 3 :wink: ) , but not so great for beginners.
I personally thing its target market is instrument makers.
(see other Bela thread in Lounge, and discuss further there)

rPI3 + PiSound... the rPI needs a sound card, and I like the PI Sound to give me that, in a compact format.
(there are other soundcards around though, e.g. hifi berry, but pi sound gives you gain controls and midi din)
but its using a RTOS, so for instrument making, latency might play a factor...
also, whilst theres a bit of a music making community with the rPI, its a bit sparse, so again, it tends to feel like your doing it on your... again, cool if your into low level stuff, but not so great if you just want to plug in, patch and make music.
(see other rPI thread in Lounge, and discuss further there)

other options are things like Mod DUO, OWL ... which Ive not had hands on experience with, but might be worth exploring.

as for other technologies, I suspect in this sub-$1000 range your going to find it hard to get what you want, perhaps look at the old Nord G2 , or Kyma ($$$$)

anyways, they all have their strengths/weaknesses... there markets... either with limited budgets, limited time, limited experience... I encourage/support them all, the more options out there, the more likely we will get better derivatives in the future.

anyway, I hope you find what your looking for.