Next-gen and mini Axoloti hardware discussion

#306

Hey everyone, quick tangent:

I'm interested in gauging where the community is at in relation to my other project based on FPAA technology: https://zrna.org/

  • I don't understand what it is or how I would use it.
  • I understand what it is and am interested but I don't think I know how to use it. I don't want to write code.
  • It's too expensive. I would buy one if it were cheaper.
  • I would buy something similar if it were integrated into an Axoloti-style workflow with a full patcher UI.

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Long term I see us having some kind of integrated solution that lets people use FPAA stuff right next to DSP stuff right in the same patcher. That may take the form of an expansion board for this new DSP board or some kind of hybrid. Does that sound interesting to you?

#307

Absolutely!

If we could use a single patcher to patch an Axoloti+FPAA as if they were a single board, that would be absolutely amazing! It would be the ultimate studio equipment development system as far as I'm concerned.

It would be extra ultra-cool if it were all in a single board though :sunglasses:

#308

iĀ“d love the possibility combining the two platforms as an add-on.
i had bookemarked your zrna anyway, as its a very interesting concept.
what held me back buying it, was a percieved lack of "oomph" in how much one could get out of one board. in retrospect maybe a lack of imagination on my side...think running axos output thru analog filters, controled from axoloti.

#309

I think the first step might be an expansion for the new DSP board, probably with four FPAA devices, that can just be stacked right on top. Four FPAAs would give us a lot more headroom to work with, more oomph. The tech can easily be scaled to as many FPAAs as we like; it's just a matter of balancing that against cost. The fully integrated single board idea is so cool, but I think it will be hard to get that to a good price point for the base board.

The patcher integration is probably the easiest part of all of this; most of the hard low-level work is already done.

#310

personally, i am more in favour of modularity than a single-board solution...not everyone will want to use the FPAA right away and be willing to pay for it.
as someone who finds himself continously running the axo output thru analog gear, iĀ“d say if the number of basic i/o match between akso and FPAA, that would be a good start for a shield.
and in general: five stars and more for all your efforts*****
really really loving, what iĀ“ve read so far.
THANK YOU!

#311

Either as a shield or integrated into the main board I love the idea. Would certainely be a novel and unique new direction for diy DSP stuff!

#312

Actually a hybrid board sold at an affordable price with patcher integration might be unique enough to catch some decent coverage in a way a straightforward board update might not.

#313

Back on the subject of tax, handling, shipping costs, I have a few questions:

  • If you live in the EU and order the current Core board from Belgium, what is the final cost including all VAT and shipping?
  • If you live in the US and order the current Core board from Belgium, what is the final cost including shipping and any taxes?
  • I was under the impression that VAT is still applicable even if you're in the EU but you're ordering something from elsewhere in the EU. Is that incorrect?
  • What is the delta between taxes applied to something coming from the US to the EU vs normal VAT on something moving within the EU? Are those applied separately?

What I want to do is try to balance all of these expenses in such a way that all parties are reasonably satisfied with the result, regardless of location. It might be the case that US users were getting screwed on the current hardware and might get a better deal on the new hardware, etc. It's been too long since I ordered an original Core so I don't remember exactly what the final cost was to have it shipped to the US.

#314

It depends, because being in the EU does not mean that each country inside of it has the same VAT. I can tell you that VAT in the UK (Which is still apparently part of the EU) is 20%, but that doesn't necessarily mean that other EU countries are.

We don't even have Euros as currency here, we stuck to Pounds Sterling, but Euros are also accepted.

#315

Iā€™m in California .

I ordered my Axolotis from Johannes, and there was no tax or import duties.

So, my net cost was the ā‚¬65+ā‚¬12 shipping, converted to USD by my credit card on PayPal.

Iā€™d suggest a similar setup, a single price in $US, and two shipping costs, USA and ā€˜rest of worldā€™.

#316

Right, I'm looking for a sense of what the average VAT is. But it sounds like you're confirming what I was thinking: it's still going to be 20% give or take just buying something within the EU? It's certainly not going to be zero?

Maybe we should do everything in Bitcoin... :vulcan_salute:

#317

I donā€™t understand why youā€™re even thinking of VAT, assuming youā€™ll ship from USA.

#318

Right, I may not be using the right terminology. I'm just echoing what the EU people are saying because that's how they refer to it. Ultimately I'm talking about taxes, whatever you want to call it, that will be collected on their end when receiving something in the EU.

#319

Thatā€™s the correct term, but itā€™s not your job to adjust the price according to local taxes, since you wonā€™t send the tax to the destination country.

#320

I completely agree. It's a psychological problem. I'm not going to have any technical interaction with the destination country's VAT system. What I want to avoid is the following: arriving at a USD price that is perfectly acceptable for someone purchasing from the US but that is offensive to someone in the EU given the additional VAT. The USD price would never be adjusted upward because of VAT. I don't think there's an obvious solution. My sense is that the rough 20% on top will be unavoidable for EU users and that it was already paid for the old hardware as well.

#321

I recently ordered another core back in October, and it was a straight ā‚¬65.00 + ā‚¬20.00 to arrive in Canada. No tax or duty. Paypal did the exchange which at the time came to $129.39 CAD.

#322

Here's another question for EU people: is VAT applied to the entire cost including shipping? Or to only the purchase price? In other words, is shipping taxed?

#323

Urklang, think of it like this:

You first of all decide the price of your product. The amount of VAT you need to charge is dependent upon where the customer is. So, for example, if your board was priced at $100 US Dollars, what would happen if I ordered the board from here in the UK is your website would auto-detect that as the order is being delivered to the UK, that 20% would need adding to the total.

Now if, for example, you charged $10 for shipping to the UK, the total cost would be:

$100 Axoloti board
$10 Delivery
= $110 + 20% VAT due to the VAT rate set for the UK
= $132 Total

Note that exchange rates will be handled by your website software and are irrelevant to you. Another thing that is irrelevant is any import taxes due when it reaches the UK. Usually, you as the seller simply would state that import taxes are not included and are the responsibility of the buyer.

Now here's the thing, something that might have been confusing you. Let's say that your product was available in Europe, through a seller like thonk.co.uk. There are two benefits to it, the first being that you could ship-off in bulk to them, and they in turn do the work of selling and shipping to everyone in the EU.

The other benefit is that because the customer is buying from within the EU, they will not be charged any import tax. Basically, anyone living in any EU country could order from thonk.co.uk and there would be no import tax to pay, because technically both the buyer and seller are located in the EU. That's what the EU is, it's an import-tax-free trading block.

Note though, that I said import tax free, not VAT free :wink:

No doubt there are errors in what I explained, but that's pretty much it just as long as you remember that each EU country is free to set it's own VAT rate, and as a result, your website must auto-detect and charge according to delivery address.

#324

Your website Shopping Cart should auto-detect this stuff, but just to give you an idea of the differences in VAT rates for the various EU countries:

image.png1386x1316 142 KB
https://files.taxfoundation.org/20190227173919/FINAL-01-01-01.png

#325

I would expect, though I haven't got first hand experience, that a web store hosted in the US wouldn't charge EU VAT on a sale destined for outside USA at all. Similarly, when I bought my Axoloti from the official site, Axoloti web store didn't charge my local California sales tax.

Question for our non-UK European friends - have you bought something online from a small shop in the USA? If YES, was VAT added in the checkout?

As I wrote in an earlier post, I don't feel Nicolas should even be thinking about this. Some places in the US have no sales tax, others have up to about 10%. Manufacturers prices aren't adjusted to attempted to make things more fair. In California (like some other states), we're supposed to self-report when sales tax isn't collected on a purchase. Some people do this, sometimes.

In EU Europe, VAT (analogous to Sales Tax in US) is generally about 20%, +/- a bit. If it is actually collected on a sale from a small US webstore, it's not much different from those places in USA where an online purchase will be charged local sales tax of up to about 10%.

Additionally, currency exchange rates add another dimension to the actual cost of international purchases.

Summary - I think it should be ignored.

I eagerly anticipate hearing what price @urklang decides. On one hand, it has big performance advantages. (added value) On the other hand, it has no DIN plugs, no PS, no separate headphone amp, smaller board. (reduced cost) And few (maybe only one) people know how many Axoloti have sold, so advantages of quantity pricing can really only be guessed.