Goodbye message + continued discussion about community behaviour(because old thread was closed)

#1

I want to continue this discussion, even though the original thread was closed by admin. I understand the program is "open source", but the community is not open. And I also want to give other users a reason for leaving, cause I am leaving this forum from today.

@spinus wrote:

Since I received my 2 axos and started reading on this forum I've detected a couple of things:

There are (at least) three very distinct user types operating on this forum: performers, builders and devs.
Not saying they are in any way exclusive, but they definitely operate
from very distinct viewpoints, using different vocabularies, different
priorities and different definitions of progress. Much of the friction
I've seen so far seems to come from the fact that we all tackle the same
topics, but often operate on different wavelengths.Secondly - we type in English, but I'll brave a guess and say
less than half of us are native speakers. Therefore, there'll be a lot
of collisions of invisible expectations about tone etc, that make things
more dramatic than they might have to be.

I've found a few answers to questions/suggestions by certain
builders/devs a bit more impatient and uneducational than I would have
hoped, but it's not hard to imagine where that would potentially come
from, and I feel the tone is generally humble and forward-looking.

Let's just be aware of the huge user-diversity of this community and
perhaps challenge ourselves to be extra careful when dealing with users
from another background than our own. We need all flavours of freaks to
evolve the Axoloti out into hyperspace.

Just my 2 cents,
S

P.S Sorry for this off-topic remark. I would also like to give a huge thumbs up to @DrJustice for these filter redefs. In brief qualitative testing I can definitely hear a difference.

Jaffasplaffas thoughts:
Thanks for your input Spinus. I think this sums up all my frustrations with this forum. The developers ONLY speaks developer language. And if you dunt understand what they say, you are not "worthy" of their time. If you can not code a single line of code, you are not "worthy" of their help. If you cannot help them, they are not interested in helping you, basicly very simple. And I know others who got this feeling too.

I get these annoying answers everytime I write them. For example if I ask for help with creating a custom objects I will be answered "you can do this with existing objects". And If I ask "how do I do this with existing objects" I'll get the answer " it would be more efficient with a custom object"... DOooouuuuUGH... Impossible to work with!!! And in the meantime they MAKE SURE to tell me that I am wasting their time..... And, sorry, I am sick and tired of these answers, that really gets no one anywhere. I think it is time for having this conversation in the open.

I have also asked from help on some stuff in private, cause I knew there was issues that Johannes dont want to talk about in the open. And when I write them in person I get pretty rude answers, again answers like "dont waste my time,", etc..

Really nice, makes you feel welcome and makes you want to contribute (sarcasm strong here).

I have NO issues with any other users that @thetechnobear and @johannes.

To other users:
I am sorry I have to leave this community, but I have had it.

Thanks to all users for nice debate and discussions and help with custom objects. I have really appreciated it. I think I have contributed a lot to this community, with debate objects etc.. SOmetimes you are wrong and sometimes you are right. I guess that is the nature of why we have forums like this, to learn. And when you ask questions to learn something and get a rude answers that cant be used for anything, I see no point in sticking around. If you cannot ask questions about a product that is really not documented well, I dont know which question to ask.

Regarding objects I have some things in the making that will be available for users, but they will not be shared in here nor in the community library. I need to find out how I'll share them, but they will be available at some point.

I was also given an ultimatum: apologies or get kicked out. So I choose to leave on my own. I am waiting for developer to send me details on how to delete my account and then I'll be gone.

Anyway, thanks and have a nice life.

Jakob Skouborg

My contact info is:
jaffasplaffa@protonmail.ch
Or
Search for "Jakob Skouborg" on Facebook.com

#2

Excuse me Jacob but i did not spotted any rudeness in thetechnobear's answer to you in that topic.
Anyways good luck to you.

#3

So upon reading this i have also decided to leave thos forum... jakob is not the only person feeling what he feels... i think johannes should consider how he treats people and he have to remember that some of us actually help him realize a dream... there is no reason in having a community if the guys who REALLY knows what its all about talks down to people who is not on there 'level' and to tell somone that if he dont apologize in public he will be kicked..... what in actual f*** is all that about... is the task to big for u to handle or do u just think that people who dont understand the axoliti like u do is wasting ur time? Sad sad sad...

And then i dont understand why the first thread was closed? Didt someone point something out that was not what the developer thought was right?

But anyways this my thoughts... a community made by the developer is not working if the developer dont get down on the users level and help all he can....

#4

I do also share the same feelings about how users are treated in the community, and it's shied me off from even asking questions. I feel like I need to have a programming degree just to understand what some folks are talking about. It's a bit sad and uninviting for people who want to support this device, but are discouraged from learning how to fully use it by lack of support from peers who have an arrogant sense to how they provide assistance. This is a tricky program, and the more the gap increases between those who can code and those who want to be able to use the instrument creatively without having to learn code, the less inclined potential users will be to purchasing the product, which will eventually become abandonware once there's no new user base that will fund new developments.

I'm not interested in participating in any group that belittles users for not having the same education as the more advanced users, especially since we are also all paying customers. I'm a bit disappointed that this type of behavior is happening here especially. Given the fact that there is little documentation provided, and even less support offered on the forum, I am less inclined to be a contributing member here at all.

#5

I'm sad to read such things, however i feel you're exaggerating things a little.
Johannes and Mark might not be the politest persons in the world when it comes to answer "noob questions" , however you should remember that they're developing the software all on their own, managing the forum and axoloti is not their first job (well, maybe i can't say this for johannes, but he has a lot of other stuff to do like producing and shipping boards).

Axoloti itself isn't the easiest music environment in the world, even if you only approach it by patching. Some aspects of programming, maths and electronics can emerge even when you don't write a single line of code, it's not Mark or Johannes work to teach the basics, that's an obstacle users should surmont on their own.

Also: yes, most users are not native english speakers, but that's not an excuse. Some users write on the forum like they're sending an sms. Wot u understand if i spek this way? U mad bro?
English is required to talk with people, if you can't speak english i'm sorry but that's not a problem of the community.

This said, the lack of documentation is an issue, but i think some aspects of programming can't just be cleared with a page on a manual. You can program some very simple k-rate objects with some knowledge of C language, but the fun stops there. Even basic math is extra tricky to implement at low level.

I hope this is not your final decision. I can see a brighter future for the community ahead, and you @anon5189335 have done a lot of nice things.. I hope you'll be back some day. Keep updating the objects.

#6

Isn't it as simple as that:
Do you insult people, who don't give answers you expected, hoped for or understand?

No, you don't.

#7

Well happy for u guys that u dont feel that.... maybe they should make it more clear for new users that if they dont have basic understanding of coding and so on this is not a product for them....

#8

There's the issue, @anon5189335 does not have any background in coding, which is needed to develop custom objects. Offering support on writing custom object code to people without any coding background, beyond referencing educational resources, would consume a lot of my time.
One issue I believe @anon5189335 is referring to, is his demand for a larger variety of window function objects. While a full collection of window function objects would be nice, I don't think it will open up a substantial set of new use cases, I don't see that as a high priority in development.

In context: @anon5189335 discovered a reference to an unmaintained channel vocoder object, and, unsurprisingly, it did not work. I was developing general framework improvements, in my opinion far more important in the big picture than releasing a channel vocoder. He sent me a private message asking me how to fix it. Here's my private answer to him:

You'd need an old version of axoloti to load an object this old, but
that would have all the bugs that have been resolved and fail to load
more recent patches.
Please do not consume my time with questions like this. The vocoder will grab my attention when I have the time for it. Currently I'm spending time on more general improvements.

I believe this is where @anon5189335 quotes me as "dont waste my time", and being rude...

I accept constructive criticisms, and I also keep spending time working on improvements.

@anon5189335 insult is not accepted here. Having issues with a demand for apologies, well...

Ultimately @anon5189335 asked to be removed, so I did.

#9

he wont be back know the guy well and yeah hes gone he have had more really bad moments with johannes... sad for the community indeed but i guess its how it is

#10

Ok, Im really sad this has happened too...

let me explain a few things, as far as i see it - and its only my opinion.

I didn't reply on the previous topics, as it was obvious Jaffa was upset by my behaviour, and thought it was better to PM him about it. These things rarely are not done best in public (imo)

So, I PM'd Jaffa and apologised (I cc'd Johannes as it is his forum) and I tried to explain to Jaffa, that yes I do get riled ( a bit more on this in a minutes) BUT I did not see this as an excuse.

I also pointed out, that 'name calling' on the forum is not acceptable ( as is normal on all forums I know of)
I did not threaten to ban him, or any other action, and had no intention.

I got a reply back that was rather cynical (he was upset , so thats understandable), so I left it at that.

I then closed the threads, because of "name calling".
I would have done the same if any member started calling any other member names.
bare in mind, I realised I couldn't delete the posts, without being accused of censorship... which was not my intention, I merely wanted to close the matter.

Closing the thread was not to censor, as it was reasonable obvious another thread would be created.

ok, as for the explanation...and I repeat, as I did to Jaffa, I do not offer this as an 'excuse', perhaps an insight.

(again note, I can only speak for myself)

I am not employed by Axoloti, it is not my job at all - I do not get paid a dime , Ive written documentation, answered questions, fixed code, written new code for one reason - I like Axoloti and what it has to offer, and its at an amazing price.

yes, I do get sometimes get irritated (incorrectly) and am less polite that I should be when I read posts that are not recognising the effort that is put into this project, or where they could do something to reduce the amount of effort I have to spent looking for a bug.

and as its not my full (or part) time job, yes, I have to decide where my time is best spent, what do I enjoy, and where does it do most good, so yes, perhaps my replies are terse at times, and expect users to help themselves.

Id hoped , many of you, will have see how many users Ive helped resolve there hardware, software and patching issues ... and sure whilst Im not the best user guide writer, I still spent my free time doing it.

perhaps judge by what I do, rather than what i say....

again, no excuse - and Im sorry, if I don't meet your expectations, or have offended anyone with my posts....

As I say, Im sad to see this, as generally, as far as I see the community has done a fantastic job of helping each other, and Im amazed to see the great things going on in the community library.

#11

Whether you're reading or writing on the internet, remember that there's a person on the other end. They probably mean you no harm, most people don't. If something seems rude, maybe it wasn't actually meant that way - or maybe it was, but then the person cooled off after 30 seconds when they realised that this is, after all, an internet forum about a plaything, and not something worth getting worked up over.

And remember that, even though you paid for the hardware, Axoloti comes some assembly required. You're expected to make an effort yourself, and you don't have any claim on anyone's time. It already does a lot, you're free to expand it in any way you want, and likely to harvest the fruit of other peoples volunteer work. It might not be as finished as you'd expect if you'd bought it in a nice box with a warranty, but the licensing and development strategy shows that Johannes has a hell of a lot more respect for us than is common in this industry, where selling boxes with half-finished firmware, constantly breaking drivers, and artificially limiting upgrade paths is the rule.

#12

I dont have anything against u i know u do it by heart.... but i do think that johannes sometimes shouæd come down in eyesight with the more patch and play users that might have a technical question... but thats just my view... sad indeed it have to come to this point...

#13

Well I'm sorry to see jaffasplatta go, I don't agree with his reasons. It sounds like he basically expected someone here to teach him how to code, as if having bought an Axoloti entitled him to that level of support. The way I see it, help with patching can be expected, but the ability to code custom objects is just a bonus for those who can code, it's not "what you paid for". Sad to see him go, but it's only because of his manufactured drama.

#14

The problem is about expectations. I'm sure Johannes and thetechnobear are happy to explain the specific oddities of writing custom objects on a coder-to-coder level, but if you don't know enough about coding to understand their help then you can hardly expect them to teach you basic concepts. That's like asking someone next to you how to spell 'apple' and then asking them to teach you the alphabet because you don't understand what "A-P-P-L-E" means.

I have the ambition of writing custom objects, but I am quietly learning things by myself so that I understand the information given on this forum better.

#15

Anyways nothing personal against anyone... all from a user view and we see things different i would love to learn to make Custom objects and i DO know that i aint gonna learn coding here :wink: @johannes u made a nice thing here love mine to bits.... still telling people to get one...
@thetechnobear u do a kick ass job as mentioned earlier....
we could discuss this all day :smile: dont have the time for that just saw the most beautiful girl in years and i didt not ask her name or phone number so i have to cry a bit over it ....

Merry post 420 :smile:

#16

As a more newer member I would have to support the comments from Sputnki, and from my real world experience to add that we cannot forget that an idea was had, and brought to life, despite the skills required to bring this together, it was freely opened to share with others, the forum was created as a means of supporting each other where possible, but just because we are great musicians, or developers, engineers, inventors, does not always mean we are highly skilled communicators, and this is by no means an attack on the level of communication in this forum as you should all be applauded as many forums I have been part in the past are absolutely shocking to say the least. However as a far least experienced in these fields I just hope that I can eventually contribute. I am severely overwhelmed by many of the topics and discussions, but also find myself on a steep learning curve which only the Axo has initiated and it is now up to me to decide how far I want to go. The other thing I see is this is still very young and considerably new, so it appears with a community behind it could go anywhere.
It my not seem like anything but in one of my posts it sounded like I was criticizing the stereo plugs on the board, when in fact I wasn't at all, nor was it my intention to do so, or upset others who potentially have so much to learn from. This did upset me, and all I was concerned about is if it would impact future discussions. But I am over this now and still continuing to scan the forum for new things to learn.
Thankyou to all the Axo community.

#17

Sorry I aint taking this. I am back for a short brief moment to answer all messages in this topic. Johannes wrote me that If I dont apologies I will be kicked out. Fine, he doesnt has to kick me out , Ill freaking leave on my own, NO WORRIES. And here is even further explanation why.

I think he did. First of all I didnt ask @thetechnobear to help with anything. Cause I know he wont help with this subject, so I did NOT adress him. SO, YES, he is rude cause he is getting involved in my discussion with DrJustice and he replies to me like a kid:

Technobear said:
jaffasplaffa
please do not push, you already made your request... if you are not
wiiling/able to do the work, then you have to wait till others have
time/inclination to do it.

Let me convert this into grown up talk:

"Jaffa move out and let the grown ups talk."

Communication skill level = ZERO

AGAIN. I did NOT adress technobear in anyway, I adressed Dr.Justice, cause he had been very kind helping me/the community out with some objects I needed for my wavetable patch. Again DrJustice, I love your helpfulness, you spirit. You created those two objects in less than a few hours... HUGE thanks.... ANd to me this is what it is all about. And I will be sending you the pro version of my wavetable patch as soon as it is finsihed.

Back to the real matter:
Technobear comes in with his shaddy attitude and trying to parent on me, which he has done A LOT lately and I am not having it. I am 37 years old and have 2 kids and I didnt sign up to this community to be adressed like a kid, ESPECIALLY NOT in cases where I havent even adressed technobear. Again, I know where he stands on customisation. He dont want to help and that is cool. I dont want his help, anyway. But I should be allowed to ask others with out those two "experts" intefering, right?

The funny thing is Johannes has emailed and told me that I am giving "wrong advice" and giving me PERSONAL lecture that I was wrong. Very personal... Yeah, sometimes I do give wrong advice LIKE EVERYONE else in here. But can I ask you how many of you have gotten a personal email telling you that you are wrong? I am guessing, NONE of you. So it is personal and I will adressit as it is personal. Sometimes we are wrong and that includes EVERYONE in here... including Johannes and technobear. If you are in doubt what I mean, I dont mind spending 10 minuts finding a bunch of wrong information from those two. Just let me know and I'll do it.

But it is this attitude among other things mentioned aboive I am pissed about. They write me a personal mail and getting personal saying that I shouldnt give advice..... rediculous. Cause they are both wrong A LOT of times. Sorry youngsters in here, these two are not rockstar gods, even though everyone in here thinks Johannes is a god from creating this. Well, you know, I know a few people in this business who have been working in music shop for years and they all same the same thing. They dont want to work with those companies who has rude customer service. And this is where I am now. I have totally changed my mind on Axoloti and I am not sure I can recommend Axoloti to anyone anymore.....

That is cool. You are entitled to your opinion. And I actually respect your opinion, cause you also put some effort into this community. Thanks.

About Language. I know how to talk and I keep it clean and I help a lot. I think that helping EVERYONE in here says WAY more about me, than one single word that I said, that everyone is now judging me on "douchebag".

But feel free to judge me on that one word instead of all the postive things I have put into this community. I dont care. That says more about those who are judging, than it says about me.............

Cpwitz
Please read my above comment to Sputnki. It is adressed at you too.

@johannes

Ok, Johannes, tell me. Arent we at different level? You know coding yes, but most of the examples that comes with Axoloti is pretty good examples of bad patching. Straigh up boring stuff, I am sorry. but they are. You dont represent your own creation in a way that is not appealling to others, only for the "elite coders". And for broadening your customer base you are relying on user library. BUT you wont help them/users create new things. Tell me, why should we help you, then?

To me it is about good and bad communication and I found mostly bad communcation from Axoloti crew. And this goes all the way back top the crowd funding campaign. You took peoples money, but you didnt even find the time to let them know what was happening with their money. At that time I was all ready dreading future support.

Yeah, I asked to be removed, cause you threatened me that if I didnt apologies in public you would kick me out. And that is fine. I will never apologize for that. I have described well above, why I wont do that. He was getting into someones business, that he should NOT be getting into. And actually that was why I asked Dr.justice in private messages about those objects for my wavetable patch, NOT in the open. Cause I knew a moderator or two who quickly get into " we are not going to teach you how to code, bla, bla, bla" mode. What about just being a litle bit nice? Arg, yeah sorry, that is asking to much from a coder, cause emotions and feelings and niceness cant be expressed with ones and zeroes......

DrJustice, whipped those two objects together in 1-2 hours. And I am pretty sure it was even faste than that. I have put patches here that I have spend way more time than one to two hours on. So I dont understand their stand "coding is more important than patching" I just dont get it. But I know some coder types think that all there is to making a device like this, is coding. Very black and white, if you ask me. Making a device like this ALSO relies on good customer service, good customer/owner relations and to be honest it starts from the owner NOT the user. It is pretty stupid to bite the hand that feeds you, aye?

SirPrimalform

That is cool. I dont agree with you either. From where did you get that I expected them to teach me coding? I DONT. I have asked, as many others in here, for help for patching etc. help fpr making objects. BUT what should I answer those who ask me about patching: Go get a Eurorack system and learn in on your own? Read the manual? I am not going to help you? It is not my problem I dont have time to teach you and it is not my job". Sorry, that is just utter BS!!

A community is about helping each other, well, I thought it was. And I have learned by now from this community, that coders can be very arrogant and see things VERY black and white. That I have learned.

And thanks for the "manufactured drama" comment. Actually you are commenting on stuff you dont know half off, so maybe just dont get mixed up in it? Thanks.

@johannes

And I rememeber some time ago where you said that I didnt help much and I write a lot of wrong stuff in here.. But when I asked you to delete all my posts along with my profile, you wouldnt do that cause you said that then people would have a hard time finding answers... And there you have it... I have contributed a lot cause you wont delete my post. Some of my post are pretty decent tutorials OR corrections of how you decribed thing to work. For example how loading patches and presets from Sd-card. You had changed the code so it didnt work. And I pointed it out and technobear fixed it I did some work on making YOUR DEVICE easier to apporach for people who dont have coding background, etc. But I am done with that now.

Today is my birthday, and now Ill go spend it on something NICE, like my kids and family and definalty NOT this community.

Kalle & Mubali Thanks for the support.

BYE

Please delete this profile, thanks

#19

The fact you made a new account just to come back and make this post is a perfect example of what I meant by manufactured drama. Please stop and just enjoy your birthday with your kids and family. If you really mean to leave, don't waste any more time on drama here, it's just embarrassing.

#20

This is a bit sad. Johannes is a cool guy in my experience, he helped me via Skype when I had problems installing the software. And that was after I had admitted I am sometimes bad with computers, and I didn't feel like he was talking down to me at all. Go figure.

This community is good too. I don't understand the tech talk but I don't mind.

#21

Can I just point out that this thread is under the wrong category? :smile: