Free Yamaha CS80

#21

YES!

but to make the thing work as it does taking a few liberties with the layout was unavoidable.

A real obvious example is that the "VCA's" are in front of the filters. But I've explained that decission thoroughly enough elsewhere.

One other example though: The placement of a modules in a subpatch determines the position of a parented controller in the list on the suppatch object's surface (Excuse me?) so I actually had to reshuffle things a bit in that subpatch screen to get the oscillator control listing that is now visible in the main screen.

User tip: Just follow the patchcords! Are you for instance aware that you can switch of specific types of patchcords in the upper right corner of the screen. So why not only leave the audiopaths visible? :slight_smile:

#22

Put aside the other specifics of the CS80, two import features of the "Blade Runner" sounds are the polyphonic aftertouch as delicately played by Vangelis and the Lexicon 224 reverb (long and slow modulated chorusing reverb). The interaction between the finger shaped tones and the infinite reverberation is one of the key for this lush sound.

The CS80 and the GX1 (Stevie Wonder's Dream Machine) are capable of doing many other sounds (strings à la "Pastime Paradise for example) thanks to the specifics @brasso pointed out.

#23

Er, since that, often imitated, particular line is monophonic you do not need polyphonic aftertouch for it. Not even monophonic aftertouch if you have a hand to spare. One can actually add almost all needed expression by simply tweaking the filter control live!

More in general your remark is however spot on. :slight_smile:

#24

I simply wanted to show something else that the BladeRunner sound.

It is played polyphonically, there is the line and other stuff played together.

There is also the darker "Village Ghetto Land", for nice polyphonic strings :

#25

If you assume that the rumbling background bass was played on the same instrument in one go you are of course right. Not sure myself though. About that Village Ghetto Land example however no such doubt exist.

#26

You re right, the GX1 has a pedal board, but i don't think it is pressure sensitive !

Much less effects and an almost raw sound, but few people know this one.

#27

@brasso I like the patch - I think at it's core it sounds good. The only thing that seems a little strange is the two banks of filters seem to act for the left or right channel independently, whereas they are labelled as if it's two types of filters? this confused me. Also mucking around with the filter env's really didn't seem to actually do anything to the filters. Maybe I need to experiment a little more...

The ring mod (with the env) sounds awesome, but really mucks with the left/right balance when engaged.

Any thoughts on how to get the CPU down a little so that a verb or chorus can be added to the end of it? Anything I put in there pushed it to 100%!

#28

Now that is more like it: Specific questions! :slight_smile:

Most stuff you ask does however still fall into 3 catagories:

  • Understanding the functionality of synthesis component in general
  • Understaning the Axoloti
  • Understanding the CS80 itself.

I have basically given you all the info you need in the previous posts so my best advice would be to revisit post 1 and 18 and (re)do the homework.

As far as your specific questions go though:

Firstly: Just to make sure we talk about exactly the same version. Did you upload the latest version (see the ammendment remark at the end of post 1)

The only thing that seems a little strange is the two banks of filters seem to act for the left or right channel independently, whereas they are labelled as if it's two types of filters? this confused me.<

The CS80 has 2 fully independent channels with a their own oscillator mix. To save processing power ( again: re-read the earlier stuff) I decided on a paraphonic approach AND on feeding one (more flexible!) oscillator mix into both channels.

You are however right about the labeling. That is a bit of residue from my main The Holy Grail project (which see). I'll correct it and place a new version under the downlod link in post 1. Thanks for the remark.

Also mucking around with the filter env's really didn't seem to actually do anything to the filters. Maybe I need to experiment a little more...<

Now let me gues: You cranked the 5th pot in the envelopes fully open. Understand that this is no real CS-type 5 stage envelope. It is a regular ADSR with the 5th pot acting as a reversed depth control. If youy leave pot 5 on zero the ADSR will work full tilt. If you put it on 10 the ADSR will however have NO effect at all. So first put pot 5 on zero and then try again.

Furhtermore the Axoloti filters seem to have quite narrow "'sweet spots". If this was still a real analog one could say they could have chosen thier pots with more care. So do not jank them from one side to the other too much but take your time trying out the inbetween settings.

The ring mod (with the env) sounds awesome, but really mucks with the left/right balance when engaged. <

I actually love that kind of stuff and there are enough level and alternative routing controls to get to a good balance. But you can of course also mix all signals into one single end-mixer.

Any thoughts on how to get the CPU down a little so that a verb or chorus can be added to the end of it? Anything I put in there pushed it to 100%! <

Basic Axoloti 1: Put the instrument on a low polyphony count first, maybe even 1 voice only. Then make the the changes you want to make. Only try how far you can go up with the polyphony count again after you've got the path working. I expect the instrument to still be able to be 8-voice paraphonic after adding an effect. Do however understand that the longer the delay time the effect can provide is (and thus the amount of memory it needs) is the more processor-hungry the module will be. So a chorus needs only a bit of processing power but a reverb will set you back a lot further.

Basic Axoloti 2: Do ALWAYS press the UPDATE button on the subpatch module in the main screen after you change something in the subpatch. Otherwise nothing will actually change!

Gulp! Just sending you another version would have been a lot quiker then explaining all this but this way you will actually learn stuff. So put your hands together for our (equally free) Axoloti / CS80 course. :sweat:

#29

hahaha yep you nailed me with most of it :joy:

I should do some reading on the CS80 - do you mean that it is essentially like 2 separate Poly's with a discreet path (osc>filter>vca etc) for both channels? And you have condensed these back down a bit to save power? Makes sense. Very interesting.

I WAS cranking the fifth pot of the ADSR, expecting it to be like the "contour" of a usual filter/env routing. Good advice on the filters too - I've dug through most of the filters trying to find one that I really bond with. That said I usually use a Sherman so I'm a little spoilt for filters...!

Great tip on reducing polyphony (or paraphony, I suppose) to squeeze in a filter. I reckon I could get away with 6 voices and still be happy with it. Next step is to borrow a controller that transmits poly aftertouch to get properly expressive.

I definitely struggle with understanding the complexities of the Axoloti overall - while I understand most of the normal objects, anything too complex or code-y just goes over my head. I think this will either happen in time or it won't - I'm pretty adverse to things that delve me too far into the technical sphere and away from the creative (one of the reasons I closed my engineering business), so I try and stay in the creative zone as much as I can. That said, I'm getting lots of mileage out of the pre-made objects, which is a bonus as I only really bought the Ax as a USB host device for my OP1.

Thanks for the help!

#30

should do some reading on the CS80 - do you mean that it is essentially like 2 separate Poly's with a discreet path (osc>filter>vca etc) for both channels? And you have condensed these back down a bit to save power? Makes sense. Very interesting. <

Exactly!

Next step is to borrow a controller that transmits poly aftertouch to get properly expressive. >

You won't regret it!

I definitely struggle with understanding the complexities of the Axoloti overall - while I understand most of the normal objects, anything too complex or code-y just goes over my head. >

Welcome to the club. I consider myself to be rather synth savy but working through the Axoloti's particulars is already quite a task in itself. The info one needs is all over the place! If only somebody would write a better user guide.

Besides that aspect though: Getting the best out of a system is often a matter of working your way around its shortcomings in a creative way. As it stands the Axoloti can actually not deliver a full CS80. But it can get awfully close!

I just made the updates to post 1. No more inconsistent labeling (I hope!) :slight_smile:

#31

@blaerg
Yup, must be a troglodyte thing, I'm sure ol'brasso thinks I'm a troglodyte anyway :wink:

@brasso
Well, in all honesty it did feel a bit tongue-in-cheek daring to make my post, but as I said, it was not meant as negative in any way. It's actually a relief to hear your reply, cause at least I feel comfortable about wanting a CS80 again. I should point out though, that my reasons for thinking what I thought are actually your own doing. First I saw the title of this thread and assumed you had recreated a CS80 on your Axo. A reply from you then pointed out you hadn't gone to the length of modelling the filter etc. At that point I still thought, well, cool stuff anyway, at least I get to play around with the CS80 in a control sense.

I had no idea you had not done that either, therefore I assumed I was playing with a CS80. I could have looked into it to re-familiarise myself, but as it was you who created it I didn't feel the need to do that, assuming it would be all 'present and correct' so to speak.

@SmashedTransistors
Nice to know how the sound was achieved. I pretty much assumed that already apart from the aftertouch, I just assumed it was done with an LFO. Again though, the only reason I mentioned that sound is because Marc (I think it was Marc) once posted about getting that sound. After seeing that, and him announcing a CS80, it just seemed logical that he'd use that sound as the default sound to demonstrate his CS80.

I got that wrong too, I guess it's one of the hazards of me being a troglodyte :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

#33

I must add that many people suggest that this string sound is a combination of the GX-1 and of the Moog CE String Filter. The Moog CE String Filter is a static bank of 30 or 40 high resonance filters. (CE stands for Custom Engineering, a particular division of Moog that produced very rare modules).

#34

Part of the problem when dicussing the "great olds" is that one has to wade through such popular lore. Conjecture and philosphizing become accepted "fact" before you know it. It could in this case be that the Moog filter was used but the GX1 does not actually need such stuff to sound this stringy.

Other good sources to check it out are:

One additional remark though: In spite of being suggested earlier the GX1 is velocity sensitive (on the upper manual) but does NOT have polyphonic aftertouch (although the mono synth of course has monophonic aftertouch and even side to side touch).

And a word of warning: If you guys keep dragging this into the nonstalgia direction too much our pointy eyed web host Technobear might dump this in the lounge section (again). :sweat:

#35

It is not sterile nostalgia memorabilia,
it is exploring the synthesis legacy to understand what specifics of the CS80 are important in some landmark sounds.
This way anybody interested can pick what specifics (s)he likes and implement it in the Axoloti.

#36

Funny Brasso should mention ABBA, I saw a fairly recent video the other week featuring ABBA's GX-1.
I do love ABBA, but sometimes I hate them cause they own a Yamaha GX-1, while Axoman does not.

Brasso, time to start work on a GX-1 clone (but actually finish the bloody thing this time) :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

#37

at 20:30, the knee controller.

#38

Exactly! Through this we also come to the very central point my intentions:

It is one thing to keep quoting or even deforming the past just for the sake of it. It is another to actually learn from it.

By knowing all these sources I prove that I have studied the subject in detail. That is however not the same as getting access to all that information and then still insisting that my CS80ish EXPERIMENT is worth nothing because it does not slavishly reproduce every detail of the original or even complaining that no active code writing to imitate the original circuits has been taking place.

As so many other fine old inventions the CS80 was in the end just another station on the route to even more interesting instruments. It is however not some Golden Calf that people should dance around while scalding anybody who does not share their blind belief.

That is namely the exact opposite of what I am trying to do here. One can thus look at my output and remarks as downgrading and say I treat people like troglodyte's (no need to put the blame on those poor bastards for my faults anyway :grinning: ) but by taking my explanations as such people are actually defeating themselves.

So take it in as far as you want to go but do not deform facts into gleaming alternative realities that never existed! At the same time the CS80 was/is one of the best instruments ever built on the other side it was/is an over expensive, by now over-hyped, piece of instable shit. Both description are actually correct at the same time, in the same reality.

That reality is already interesting enough without people adding all sorts of incongruous noise. That is the only thing I wanted to say here: Beware of the noise and be critical of it. If only to avoid to be put into the Lounge for such crimes.

In the same vein: Please stop putting salt on every word I use and actually start reading.:upside_down_face:

#39

I wonder how Brasse is coming along with his physical build?

Was just reading about this project and immediately thought of Brasso!
https://www.deckardsdream.com/

Looks like a nice project, but damn, it suffers from the same problem as the vintage one (too bloody expensive). They only want $1,199.00 for the kit, or if you're feeling flush and a bit lazy, you can have them build it for you, but that would bring it to $2,550.00.

Would definitely love one in my rack though, no doubt about it, so now I'm pinning my hopes on Behringer coming-up with a CS80 clone for about £400 :yum:

#40

And a proper modern PolyAT keyboard/ribbon to go with!