Axoloti Control

#21

its 16.5 x 8.5cm... don't know about the above prototype.
I only mention , because indeed a previous prototype was exactly the same size as the axo, so wanted to say that later prototypes are quite different.
... but its quite possible its changed again, and its for Johannes to release details once he has found the form factor he is happy with, and of course, can produce at a price he wants.

#22

I discussed about the Axoloti with some french fellow synth enthusiasts.
Many are very interested by the Axoloti but they are waiting for a kit with an enclosure and a few controls like the Shruti from Mutable Instruments used to be.

#23

It’s a very different beast to the Shruth-1, so I think they’ll be waiting a long time....

a|x

#24

I have a Mouser cart permanently ready to order: 15 pots, 5 buttons, a small project box.
That's all you need ... or even forget the pots and buttons and use almost any midi controller (but I'm keen on the analog resolution for the pots). But I keep re-designing my plans.:grin:maybe just 8 pots and then some rotary switches with resistors, or maybe some encoders too? How about some slider pots? Maybe some pressure sensors? Or a ribbon pot? :wink: then again, I could put a teensy in the box too, or a second axoloti, and redesign again.

However now that it sounds like we might hear something soon about an official controller, I'm in deeper limbo!

Whatever about the ease/fun/indecision of building your own control interface, the advantage of a Johannes designed controller with whatever proprietary tricks/GUI element he might have in mind is a very attractive proposition.

However the real bonus of the release of such an "official standard controller" is that it will propel the axoloti to greater popularity and community-learning. Organelle's standard UI has had a lot to do with driving its growth by putting a frame on the open-ended nature of PureData : its UI limitations mean users can exchange patches that can be loaded and work the same way for everyone.

Can't wait to see what Johannes has in mind.

#25

I totally agree, I think a 'finished solution' would make Axoloti more attractive to many more people, to less DIY oriented musicians. (and like you, ive had musicians tell me, they'd get it, if it was more finished/complete)

i think there are two big reasons, why this is hugely important:

  • many don't like bare circuits, they consider it unfinished/fragile... its not an 'instrument'
  • a standard form factor / UI, makes 'finished' end user patches much more appealing to develop and share. (as also raised by @mokomo)

the second point is why Ive recently enjoyed making patches for the Organelle, because I know every user can run my patches as intended - as someone that likes to share their work, this is much more satisfying, than creating objects or patches that ive no idea how people use.
its more akin to creating a 'finished product', which i enjoy, as its usable by everyone, not just devs.

this is a viewpoint Ive expressed to Johannes on a few occasions, explaining why I think Axoloti Control could be a 'game changer' for axoloti - not because of the hardware, but because of how it will be used, and who it is likely to attract.

(small note: none of this would take away from axoloti current user base, those that are perhaps more DIY/tinkers focused, those that want to build their own controllers/enclosures - those will still be unique and special :slight_smile: )

but its not an easy task, and Johannes has played a lot with the balance between functionality vs cost/price (really hard for a board that is very cheap) - i don't know what the current price point is likely to be, but id say the prototype looks to really strike the balance well.

unfortunately, recently ive been pulled away from axoloti due to a few other projects, which have been demanding on my free time - but i do hope to get some more quality time with it again in the not too distant future.

I really hope Axoloti Control (and also the new release) can be finished off - its a big job, but one that I think will give axoloti a breath of fresh air, a new vigour, and also bring it to a wider audience, which i really think it does deserve.

#26

It's more like a Clavia Micromodular.
I think that with a simple and nice metallic enclosure and minimalistic controls it can become a studio swiss army knife.

#27

If they were smart, they would make it the size the would fit in a Eurorack panel (4" - a little less than 3U high). If they wanted to REALLY make some bank, also offer the panel remade or at least a CAD drawing of the component spacing. A board no taller than 4" would work for Eurorack or desktop use.

#28

Another option to really keep the price down, is to offer the Gerber files and people can have their own made. There are many PCB proto houses out there now that will easily make VERY small quantities of PCBs cheaply. Board with SMD parts already put on them too. All it would take is a BOM, a set of Gerber files, and a preferred vendor list. The main thing people really need is that the board design has been tested, and it works. Many will gladly take it the rest of the way. I can have a boar made from tested files much easier than laying it out from a schematic from scratch.

#29

The board is already made so that you can cut off the portion with the MIDI sockets, then it will fit behind a Eurorack panel. Check out Euxoloti for an example of that: http://build.irieelectronics.de/

I'm all for the DIY spirit, but I think Johannes should keep the Axoloti core (and eventually Control) boards proprietary - he needs to earn a living and the boards are already very nicely priced :slight_smile:

#30

DrJustice - We are talking about the Axoloti Control board (see picture above), NOT the Axoloti core board. The control board pictured will not fit behind a Eurorack panel. The Core Board will fit just fine horizontally with room for 16 pots and jacks beneath it, I have designed a few versions myself. I am talking about the Control board made to be short enough to fit behind the panel and the Axo Core can plug into it. The VERY BEST thing would be to merge them BOTH into one product, one board, with right angle USB and SD card connectors.

Johannes has already open sourced the Axo. The schematics are already available. One could lay out their own version if they had the right software. There are MANY more people who would buy remade PCBs other than DIY'ing it themselves. He will not lose money. He could sell the Gerber files too. The PCB layout can be patented/copyrighted while the schematic design cannot (the actual print can be copyrighted, but not the circuit).

#31

Ahh, OK, I misunderstood. I was thinking that the Axoloti core was sort of a prerequisite for a complete DIY oriented release. And yes, the schematics are free for all - good for tinkering.

I still think Johannes should get to recover something for his efforts, and for him to sell the complete cores and controls just seems right. I don't think there's a big market for Gerber files, and although bare PCBs is a possibility, it would probably be cheaper to just buy the complete Axo control (and Axo core...) as having a single PCB made and/or populated is costly and there'd be time to invest to end up with the exact same thing you can buy from Johannes for a more than fair price.

Of course, Johannes could make boards with different form factors, but that would impact the economy of scale.

I see the natural DIY aspect of Axoloti as using the board(s) as components in other project, with much of the point being that you don't have to make the boards.

#32

Agreed. He needs to live, so it's legitimate to want to make a some profit on selling pre-made boards.

a|x

#33

Note, there's quite a lot more to having a useful Axoloti in your Eurorack synth than just making it physically fit, and making a module that works as a standalone desktop module, and as a Eurorack module without a lot of extra components may not be possible, given the quite different requirements of the two environments.

a|x

#34

Id say that is potentially a completely different market/product ...

end users of a 'standalone' products tend to prefer horizontal orientations, which is exactly what eurorack does not want (= more HP) , and besides, an axoloti control in eurorack format that did not also provide CV I/O and audio I/O would be pretty illogical.

i.e. what your advocating is a eurorack axoloti, which I agree would be a great development, but is not what axoloti control is intended to be....btw... i do agree a eurorack Axoloti would be an awesome product.

of course, I recognise some , like the Koma Field kit/ Mother32, go down this route, but Ive noticed that often the modular community then start complaining that the footprint is too big for eurorack (for the functionality provided) ... seems better to do specific eurorack versions (imho)

also whilst eurorack is 'fashionable' , id say its arguable, the desktop synth market is bigger ... even if users are not willing to spill as much cash :wink:

#35

Exactly.

Having said that, with the DIN MIDI board removed, the Axoloti can be placed behind a Eurorack panel of relatively reasonable dimensions (certainly a lot smaller than the Mother32 or O-Coast, anyway). Once you start adding a reasonable number of pots, buttons, audio and CV I/O, it's still a not unattractive proposition, but you need to add a fair amount of extra circuitry to make it play nicely with other Euro gear.

a|x

#36

yes, but this assumes you mount the axoloti with the length being vertical...
axoloti control assumes the length is horizontal, which would suit a desktop unit, but this would make it a wide eurorack module, and HP (width) is where most eurorack users have constraints.

honestly, if Johannes wanted to maximise return (and honestly I think he should*) he would:
(*) I think the more return in Axoloti, the more viable it is long term

  • produce a dedicated eurorack module
    eurorack is perfect for small manufactures, and something like MI elements sells for > 500 euro
  • produce a dedicated instrument
    enclosure + control + axoloti, a volca sells for 150 euro, c&g organelle 350, preenfm2 250? , so probably ~ 200-250?

its simple to see why there is a eurorack rush...imagine axoloti at 250 euro in the Eurorack market, thats pretty budget,
at 250 in the desktop synth market, its very unique, but there are 'alternatives'

however, I think it be a big shame, if Axoloti went into the 'exclusivity' of the eurorack ocean.

Id personally, prefer it in the more general desktop market, where 1000's of kids could use it to explore synthesis, sequencing, programming... the musical 'arduino' , so dive in with an axoloti 'instrument' (core+control+enclosure) , then as you understand it, buy other cores to extend it, or do something more specialised.

of course, this is all easy to say from the comfort of my sofa, where i dont have to lay down the capital/investment, and putting in the 100s of hours of development/support etc!
if your doing for real, thats when you have to have the vision, and real faith in it, know where you want to go!

#37

I am not suggesting a dedicated Eurorack module (with CV ins and outs etc.) just that when making the Axo Control PCB, why not make it a size that can fit a Eurorack panel? That is not a lot to ask. I am making a Eurorack version of the Axo and basically all it is is the Axo Core full width, with a panel and all 16 pots below it, wired up and and some digital outs. I plan on controlling it with a CV to MIDI controller module sitting right next to it. No extra connections or mods to the Core at all. The Control would be a better solution though. I would still control it over MIDI and use the Control's front panel controls, and more importantly, the front panel Display along with the MIDI in form the CV to MIDI module sitting right next to it.

Techno Bear - I don't know where you thought I was proposing a Vertical layout. With that amount of buttons and controls, it would be a wide Eurorack module and a wide desktop, no difference. Wider modules are not as much of a problem in euroland as they once were. Ergonomics is starting to rule. There are many voice modules and full synthesizers that are over half a 19" rack wide. It could be as big as that if it needed to. Lots of desktop boxes are under 5" too.

Toneburst - You will find that most of the Eurorack crowd WANTS as much of their stuff in cabinet as they can. Even things that are not really modules. They want the ease in performance of just taking off the cover to a pre-patched setup and playing. Running it off the same supply and not dealing with wall warts.

And as a maker of Eurorack modules under the Synthwerks brand, I am all for Johannes making as much money as he wants off of these things. I know first hand the hassles of making products and he is at the easiest end of the business as possible - he just makes PCBs and test them. He isn't dealing with front panel metalwork shops, hardware and assembly of finished products, pretty boxes, marketing, etc. The idea of selling the Gerber files would be just an added fork in the revenue chain, not a replacement of the current product. It would be something he could sell that would be ALL profit. He is generating them for production anyway.

#38

Wishful thinking , I know, but personally I hope Johannes had a major change of heart and decided to go with a board that features headers, and into those headers you can plug the buttons, indicators, and display etc. Doing it that way, everyone gets what they want because they are free to connect the button types they prefer, and have complete freedom in their placement, and even the placement of the various elements relative to themselves.

There is no reason why buttons and indicators cannot be supplied along with the board on the end of wires, rather than being hard-wired to a preset design - same goes for the Axoloti itself with it's audio jacks, power, and USB/MIDI connections etc.

In other words, I think we should be able to just stick the board in an enclosure, and drill holes into whatever the hell we like in order to place the controls and display that is connected to it, with complete freedom.

Doing it that way, would also make Axoloti much more attractive to those wanting to run a business selling axo-based hardware products. I feel the same about the Axo itself, seems completely counter-productive to me to pre-populate the board, when using headers would keep the price lower, and allow more freedom to users basing their products on it.

I have serious respect for Johannes, what he's achieved with Axoloti, but the decision to pre-populate the boards seems to go against the whole point of having a completely customisable product to base audio hardware on, and generally a bad idea. No doubt there's a very good reason for it, but personally, I'm completely baffled by the decision to do that, because it just doesn't make sense to me, not in an ergonomical one, a cost effictive one, or a freedom one.

I do also see the attraction in receiving an Axoloti in an enclosure with the controls ready to go, but again, I honestly cannot imagine why inside that enclosure, it cannot be comprised of non-populated boards with wires connecting the controls to them.

Like I said, totally baffling to me, maybe it's just a Belgian thing :grin: :wink:

#39

I wonder if it would be feasible to have a K-rate only version of Axoloti, or something similar.. I expect with Eurorack etc, you are not always controlling audio, so why complicate it ?
And you still have the advantage of using the patcher..
The only thing I think it would need however, is a decent speed PWM out of the GPIO's which can easily be filtered into an analogue source, could be plugged into ther Axo analogue inputs etc.. I don't think a 3khz pwm freq would be sufficient for 8 bit accuracy or higher.. would cut it.
:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

#40

I don't honestly see what this would achieve. You'd still need to add extra circuitry to bring i/o to Euro levels, provide CV in and out, etc., so where would you put these? Assuming the controller board itself fitted in a 3U space, you'd need another panel next to it with the i/o.